tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-55532501364780143.post7936789936422671435..comments2023-12-18T17:32:03.325+00:00Comments on Kindred of the Quiet Way: 2 PreceptsUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-55532501364780143.post-3106542579460151472018-11-11T22:34:37.340+00:002018-11-11T22:34:37.340+00:00However.
Okay.
Let me go through the points you ra...However.<br />Okay.<br />Let me go through the points you raise one by one.<br /><br />"The Scriptures are the way to be aligned with how we are created to be."<br />I think so too. But I don't share your methods of applying the scriptures. That, in my view, doesn't diminish the value and power of the scriptures.Of course I might be wrong. So might you.<br /><br />Your remarks about pigs.<br />Yes, if medical doctors warned people to avoid pork they probably would.<br />"How do I know that your health is not a product of prawns and bacon?" I'm not clear what you mean. Are you under the impression that I am in poor health? I come from a family with a history of psychiatric and neurological challenges. Compared with most members of that family, my health is a cause for optimism. In recent years I have made some nutritional adjustments with helpful effects — I cut out dairy, wheat and sugar, tea, coffee and alcohol. Without these, the problems I did have vanished. Pork products have produced no ill effects that I can discern. Nor prawns. Nothing in the Bible warned me to avoid the foods that proved problematic. I don't feel disappointed about this, because that's not the way I read the Bible.<br /><br />Your remarks about stonings. <br />"If stoning was a strong deterrent and also dependent on the testimony of two agreeing witnesses, how exactly do you know that your form of social behavior is better?"<br />Well, as a divorced woman married to a divorced man, given all that the scriptures have to say on this topic, taken in aggregate, I personally do feel quite strongly that I would prefer society minus the stonings. You may feel, of course, that society would be improved if I were put to death, and who am I to disagree with you? Perhaps it would. I'd still prefer a more humane end.<br /><br />Your remarks about my personal faith and witness.<br />"Perhaps before you say "I'm a Christian" and really long before you would say you are a minister of the gospel (as James points out, more accountable), you might consider the whole truth of Scripture."<br />Yes. I do. That's my point. The whole truth, not bits of it separately applied.<br />But, what are you saying? That in your opinion I am not a Christian? That in your opinion my salvation is void and I am going to hell? Because I disagree with you?<br />As to my saying I am a minister of the gospel, what do you mean? I am not a pastor, I no longer have ordained status, I am a Local Preacher in the Methodist Church. I accept that church's discipline and understanding of the scriptures. I wholly concur with John Wesley's teaching that the scriptures contain all that is necessary for our salvation. <br />I'm not quite sure why you seem to have formed the impression that I think Paul had a New Testament, but let that lie. You must have misunderstood something I said.<br /><br />I am puzzled why you end your remarks with "Blessings". Did you think that, after hinting that I am not a Christian (and therefore by your interpretation of the scriptures presumably going to hell), after suggesting that my work as a minister of the gospel (in the sense of being a preacher and writer) is inadequate and sham, that "Blessings" will do anything to make me feel blessed?<br /><br /> I do not agree with your stance on the Bible, and I do not believe that our difference of approach invalidates either your Christian belief or mine. Over the years I have received, I hope patiently and with courtesy, a number of your opinion pieces here, but I would much prefer not to be browbeaten on my own blog. For almost ten years this has been a place of peace, and I would prefer to keep it so. Since your views are clearly firmly fixed, I'd have thought you might prefer to spend time on one of the many sites more in harmony with the outlook you hold.<br /><br /><br />Pen Wilcockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13818227904371811230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-55532501364780143.post-75491196649924762092018-11-11T18:49:18.620+00:002018-11-11T18:49:18.620+00:00Jenna, you don't have to read this blog.Jenna, you don't have to read this blog. Pen Wilcockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13818227904371811230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-55532501364780143.post-63702774337753600592018-11-11T17:27:36.778+00:002018-11-11T17:27:36.778+00:00See? This is what is confounding to me. The Script...See? This is what is confounding to me. The Scriptures are the way to be aligned with how we are created to be. And if one's doctor were to cite a study in which pork products were suddenly demonized by medical "science" people in droves would adopt it. With the information available now about how pigs store toxins in their flesh instead of releasing them, how do you know that your health is not a product of prawns and bacon? And if stoning was a strong deterrent and also dependent on the testimony of two agreeing witnesses, how exactly do you know that your form of social behavior is better? (In actual fact, very few stonings ever actually occurred.)(AND the reason yonder maiden caught in the act wasn't prosecuted was that a) the man had not similarly been brought to Yahshua; and b) the first stones belonged to the witnesses--who in this instance knew they were lying and so didn't want to suffer the fate of the so-accused.) I don't expect you to post this comment, Pen, but perhaps before you say "I'm a Christian" and really long before you would say you are a minister of the gospel (as James points out, more accountable), you might consider the whole truth of Scripture. Paul--who did NOT in fact have a New Testament AND who was the person in the whole of the known world who had studied Torah to the nth degree--said that ALL scripture was profitable for doctrine, reproof, rebuke, and instruction. He had the opportunity at that point to sequester some of it at that point: "Hey Tim, don't worry about pages 211 to 598. Those don't apply." But he did not. Blessings--Jenna Jennahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08817348519203352250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-55532501364780143.post-49007688894802707162018-11-11T06:43:11.560+00:002018-11-11T06:43:11.560+00:00Thanks Deb — got your address safely, and will put...Thanks Deb — got your address safely, and will put a book in the post to you on Monday. xPen Wilcockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13818227904371811230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-55532501364780143.post-69029703776019207222018-11-10T17:07:42.911+00:002018-11-10T17:07:42.911+00:00You might not find this helpful, and I am certainl...You might not find this helpful, and I am certainly not wanting to spam you, but I have written two books of Bible studies ('100 Stand-Alone Bible Studies', and '100 More Stand-Alone Bible Studies') that can be used either for group work of for an individual looking for some simple and straightforward help in exploring the teaching of the Bible on key elements of the Christian faith. Just a thought — I'm not wanting to embarrass you or put pressure on you. If you feel interested in exploring further, just now I still have a couple of copies of the 2nd book, because it was only published in September and the publisher give me a few freebies. If you comment again with your full name and street address, I could send you one (and of course I would not publish your comment) xPen Wilcockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13818227904371811230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-55532501364780143.post-17089455885845171482018-11-10T16:01:51.285+00:002018-11-10T16:01:51.285+00:00“ The boundaries of my soul are guarded by his Nam...“ The boundaries of my soul are guarded by his Name” <br />That’s such a comforting thought Pen and I appreciate the time you take to respond to my ramblings. Perhaps I should delve back into my Bible again. I find it, all at once, so very beautiful, challenging, contradictory and sometimes quite bewildering. I love the language of The King James Version and the immediacy of the modern ones - but it does leave me spinning with how to interpret it all! I love the idea of it being a living and unfinished book; much as we are I guess. Perhaps that’s why it’s evolving and so complex ;) <br />Deb x Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-55532501364780143.post-29423461391746352252018-11-10T14:54:09.099+00:002018-11-10T14:54:09.099+00:00Hi Deb — for me, the Bible is a living book. I thi...Hi Deb — for me, the Bible is a living book. I think I'd go so far as to say it has never been finished; it is still being written in our lives. I do agree with you that God is love, and like you I see a pointing towards this central beautiful truth in the religions of the world. I do also turn to the Bible for specifics of how to live; for example in learning and teaching about healing or about prayer, I look carefully at how Jesus and his apostles went about healing, and read what Jesus said and Paul wrote about prayer. And I love the Old Testament too, and find it an unending treasury to resource my own personal pilgrimage through life.<br />I would never say that, for me, the Bible is just a book among books, and I am very clear that I am a Christian and I belong to Jesus. The boundaries of my soul are guarded by his Name. As the book of Proverbs says, "The Name of the Lord is a strong tower; the righteous run into it and they are safe." I believe that.<br />I think if one lives this holistically, then a spaciousness of soul comes about which feels unthreatened by the spiritual paths others follow, and can learn from them. Pen Wilcockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13818227904371811230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-55532501364780143.post-62314981534883897402018-11-10T10:48:51.234+00:002018-11-10T10:48:51.234+00:00Yes, I do agree with you Pen, and I have come to b...Yes, I do agree with you Pen, and I have come to believe the different faiths all point to the same thing - love. If we can all treat others as our conscience ( aka Holy Spirit?) tells us we might all live more peaceably. Religion seems to be dependent on which part of the world one happens to have been born into, whereas faith and love eternal are surely open to all. <br />I can’t help but think that literal interpretations of the Bible can lead to strident actions which, ironically, seem to be anything but good news. Hence so many wars etc - I need not go on. And I for one would never begrudge a homeless person a found apple or two, or a discarded blanket if they were lucky. One might even say ‘ God provides...’ <br />I realise I’m niave in my knowledge of scripture and world religions and that this is probably incredibly idealistic, but it helps me to see things simply. <br />Wishing you all a peaceful weekend x deb Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-55532501364780143.post-19146531313259785652018-11-10T07:43:10.705+00:002018-11-10T07:43:10.705+00:00Hmm. I don't always stick to the Scriptures. I...Hmm. I don't always stick to the Scriptures. I wear polyester cotton. I eat prawns and bacon. I am a pacifist. I'm not in favour of stoning people to death or of slavery. I am not in favour of ritual sex in worship as the example you give of the perils of mixing with others — but then neither am I in favour of polygamy or masses of concubines or the domination of women by men and the silencing and subjugation of women (all of which can be fully supported from the scriptures). I go to the Scriptures for inspiration, but I prefer John Wesley's recipe of "Scripture, Tradition, Experience and Reason", when it comes to finding the path the light shines on. <br /><br />Now, suppose the thing you found was a starved and beaten dog — or, if you were in Korea, a net of dogs tied up ready to be dipped into boiling water and skinned alive. You think one should make an effort to find the owner and ensure it was returned to him? I'd have to disagree. Or suppose what you found was a semi-automatic rifle all loaded and good to go, and it belonged to a crazed maniac who lived next door to a school. Are you saying one should search diligently for the owner to return it? Again, I'd have to disagree.<br /><br />And as soon as I disagree I have ceased to abide by your principle of sticking diligently to the counsel of the scriptures. As for enemies — I have no enemies. As Paul wrote, "Our enemy is not flesh and blood". Yet the Old Testament speaks continually of flesh and blood enemies; so we discern a need to use our reason and experience, our knowledge of the world as it really is, to find a wise course. The Genesis creation accounts, for example (which differ from each other) are luminous with astonishing insight into how the world came about — but they are best understood alongside the scientific information we now have.<br /><br />Even if we do stick to the Bible we can discover within it different strands of thought — those that originated with Abraham and those that originated with Zoroaster; and we can trace the debate between them clear through the Old Testament into the New. Then in the New we find Peter pulled hither and thither and in conflict with Paul, and not every text agrees with every other. The Bible, in my view shows us the emerging of the household of faith to which we belong, but we run into difficulties when we rely on it as an instruction manual or our only source of wisdom. <br /><br />I am not drawn to the we-are-right-and-everyone-else-is-wrong approach. After all, the Bible itself teaches "What does the Lord require of thee but to do justice and to love mercy and to walk humbly with thy God," and that feels right to me.Pen Wilcockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13818227904371811230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-55532501364780143.post-41802080777658459412018-11-09T22:40:34.118+00:002018-11-09T22:40:34.118+00:00Personally, as a believer in the Way, I stick to t...Personally, as a believer in the Way, I stick to the Scriptures for life advice, counsel, and direction. We're not to mix, after all; Israel got in a whole raft of trouble time and time again for consulting and adopting their neighbors' ways of doing things--even to the point of adopting ritual sex to worship the Almighty! The Northern Kingdom got the immediate boot, and the Southern Kingdom later on--though they came back in time enough to bring Yahshua--who some refer to by the Greco-Roman "Jesus"--to the scene...but it wasn't long until they, again, were driven from the Land. <br /><br />When we find things, we are to make an effort to locate the owner. We can have custody over it, but if the owner comes, we give the thing back happily. If it's money, you can keep the interest you earned on it. The emphasis on community, though, has to take precedence over even your need for whatever it was you found. If it's your enemy's ox, you have to return it. If two of you have a dispute over a thing, the one that is found to be bringing a false witness (ie saying something is yours when it's not or saying you didn't find such and such thing) pays double--the item or ox or whatever PLUS the value again. That pretty much kept people pretty honest about found things. Cases were brought before elders who had spiritual discernment and knew how to hear from YHWH.<br /><br />And of course, our popular ditty "finders keepers, losers weepers" runs exactly counter to that teaching. Jennahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08817348519203352250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-55532501364780143.post-88830917681125965812018-11-09T20:31:51.233+00:002018-11-09T20:31:51.233+00:00Hi Suzan — "stealing by finding" — I had...Hi Suzan — "stealing by finding" — I had never heard of that!<br />I like your analogy of the diamond, because it allows for the two-way flow between us and God — the one point behind the many facets, and the refracting light within the whole and radiating outwards.Faith is indeed like that.Pen Wilcockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13818227904371811230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-55532501364780143.post-80769923450107103812018-11-09T19:56:50.141+00:002018-11-09T19:56:50.141+00:00I love that you seek and search and are so accepti...I love that you seek and search and are so accepting. We can be so easily blinkered by our views to the detriment of ourselves and others. I think that faith is like a diamond; multifaceted but leading to one point that is God. We can learn from others without destroying the gift that Jesus paid for us.<br /><br />I know that in Queensland there is a charge for taking things you might find and it is called stealing by finding.Suzannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-55532501364780143.post-7128452047749802992018-11-09T19:54:49.700+00:002018-11-09T19:54:49.700+00:00Hi Fiona — Thank you!
My husband says often, &quo...Hi Fiona — Thank you! <br />My husband says often, "All truth is God's truth", and that feels right to me.<br /><br />Hi Elin — I had to look up the Verse of Light; I had never come across it. How beautiful!<br />I love your story about God forgiving for us — like God closes the distance separating us from other people with his own grace.<br />Pen Wilcockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13818227904371811230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-55532501364780143.post-53083289844636136412018-11-09T16:08:43.581+00:002018-11-09T16:08:43.581+00:00I strongly believe that we are all god's child...I strongly believe that we are all god's children created in his image. Like a good parent god loves us all, yes, even the most despicable humans on the planet. No exceptions. This is my core. That is why I can never support the death penalty for example. This is why I pray for those I don't think that many pray for. They may have thrown away all that was given to them by god in this world but they are not entirely lost. I, as a human, may not be able to see anything that I can find redeeming in a person but I never lose faith that god does. If they want god, god will be there for them. <br /><br />Because of this, I like you can see things in other religions that speak to me. The verse of light in the Quran is beautiful: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verse_of_light. I have read writings by Sufis and Jewish mystics which are very inspiring. I do not want to dismiss the Eastern religions but I have so far found less within these religions which inspire me but I am not ruling it out. I have met many Christians who find comfort in Buddhism but most of what I read feels "dead" to me, it doesn't inspire at all unfortunately. I don't have a problem with this in me or in others though, we all reflect different images of god if we allow ourselves. That is the core I think, if we are reflecting god's image, no matter who we are or what we believe we are fulfilling the purpose we were born to fill. <br /><br />Now I go OT but I started to think about a discussion about forgiveness that I had once. A woman who had been through some tough things was very offended by the idea that god forgives. "How can a righteous god forgive my rapist?" One woman sat there and was quiet for a long time before she said: "Maybe god does so you don't have to?". I think that while we are able to forgive a lot of things, it is a comforting thought that for those things that we cannot make ourselves forgive maybe good in his compassion with all of his children steps in and allow us to not have to do the impossible. While hate is not a great feeling, at some points it may be the only thing that gives a person the will to go on in life. Elinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06401440551873070129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-55532501364780143.post-62564116597013558242018-11-09T15:55:17.129+00:002018-11-09T15:55:17.129+00:00Thank you for these wise words, Pen. You are, at l...Thank you for these wise words, Pen. You are, at least in my experience, rare among Christians in your willingness to regard other faiths in this way, and I so much appreciate your stance and your openness about it. As you say, many other religions, and those who practise them, can shed infinitely valuable light on our path as we make our journey through life. It's lovely to see your smiling face, and that shade of green is gorgeous on you! <br /><br />xxxFionahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16770105937876404823noreply@blogger.com